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Author Topic: Barnes .458 SOCOM reloading manual info  (Read 15021 times)

Jakal

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Barnes .458 SOCOM reloading manual info
« on: April 11, 2011, 09:11:21 AM »

Barnes is trying to get their Tactical Reloading Manual ver1 out very soon.  It will contain load info for the 300grn TTSX.  I called Barnes today and they were nice enough to forward me what they had on the 300grn TTSX.  The reloading manual #5 won't be out for awhile but the "TRM1" will have this info in it.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=317093

Please look at this and verify your loads.  Especially the H110 loaders (which I am one of) I settled on 30.5 grains and Barnes has the max load of H110 set at 28 grains!  Also notice COAL and trim length is different.

There is a 330 grn solid that is shown also, it is the top load, don't confuse that info for the 300grn TTSX.

They did say anyone that wanted this info just needs to call them and they would email it to them.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2011, 08:45:20 AM by Jakal »
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Glockrocker

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Re: Barnes .458 SOCOM reloading manual info
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2011, 09:24:18 AM »

Thanks, Jakal! ;D
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Big Bore

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Re: Barnes .458 SOCOM reloading manual info
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2011, 09:36:42 AM »

And this is exactly why I have been whining for almost a decade now that we need real pressure test data, and this is also the results I was afraid that we were going to see.  The odd thing I do find about it though is that their data shows a top load of H110 of 28.0 gr. yielding 1706 fps, while my data has the previously listed max load of 31.5 gr. of H110 and it yields only 1666 fps.  Not a great difference in velocity but a huge difference in powder charge.  Even my start load (-3%) was over Barnes' maximum load.  
There is a large number of shooters that follow the velocity, figuring that they can keep dumping in powder until they equal the pressure data velocity in case they have a slow barrel.  I do not subscribe to that method of self destruction. Using the Ammoguide velocity estimator tool, 28 gr. (or 29 gr. if you subscribe to the belief that H110 and W296 are the same powders and their data can be used interchangeably and the difference in load listings is due to different lots of powder) and then extrapolating the speed of my bullets at the 28 gr. load will have them strolling out of the barrel at a leisurely 1500 fps.  That's not worth a tinker's damn. :( :(
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Flintknapper

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Re: Barnes .458 SOCOM reloading manual info
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2011, 12:03:04 PM »

Huh?

A..... 1 in 9 twist????????????  ???
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Jakal

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Re: Barnes .458 SOCOM reloading manual info
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2011, 12:23:39 PM »

I followed up your 1 in 9 question with Barnes and they replied

"The 1-9” barrel is what we used to shoot the data.  There is no twist requirement and will shoot just fine in a 1-14” twist barrel."

Also asked about pressure traces for the 300 TTSX, no reply on that though.

Hopefully this is good data and they aren't just stringing me along....  ??? 

I guess I will have to put in an order for their TRM1 and see if anything changes between what they have given me here and the publishment.

If this is correct I have a shit-load of over-pressured rounds that I will need to pull and rework.  Now it makes me wonder about the IMR-4198 rounds and if they are overpressured also at 32 grains.

Looks like I may need to change up my powders a lil.  get it........ Lil'Gun!
« Last Edit: April 11, 2011, 12:28:30 PM by Jakal »
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capn jack

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Re: Barnes .458 SOCOM reloading manual info
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2011, 02:08:12 PM »

I suppose anything is progress, :( but the way they are moving,
by the time they amass much in the way of any data, most of
us will be too old to see through our scopes. Right now on this
board and working on my own (being conservative) I have just
about all of the loads I'll ever need. Interesting to see which
bullet they started with....Should save some people a lot of $$$

Jack... 8)
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458MADNESS

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Re: Barnes .458 SOCOM reloading manual info
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2011, 05:08:16 PM »

so let me get this straight. the manual lists way underrated powder charge, then why would one even trust  or go by it. does not sound promising in any way, shape or form.

Big Bore

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Re: Barnes .458 SOCOM reloading manual info
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2011, 09:12:07 PM »

I can almost assure you the manual is not an under rated powder charge.  That is the powder charge that during Barnes' testing did not exceed the .458 SOCOM's 35,000 psi design pressure limit.  It is OUR loads that are exceeding the 35K psi, not the Barnes loads that are less than 35K psi.
I've been cautioning for years that too many people were pushing their .458S rifles way too hard-by evidence of people talking about seeing pressure signs-and when actual pressure tested data did come out we were all going to be in for a surprise.  Well...
SURPRISE!
Barnes' data is pressure tested, ours is pressure guested. Remember, you will NEVER see pressure signs on the .458 SOCOM until you are WAY over the 35K psi design limits, and the first sign will be flattened primers and with pistol primers, they do not start to flatten until about 44,000 psi, which is 9,000 psi OVER The .458 SOCOM's rated pressure.
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Forester

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Re: Barnes .458 SOCOM reloading manual info
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2011, 09:34:44 PM »

I can almost assure you the manual is not an under rated powder charge.  That is the powder charge that during Barnes' testing did not exceed the .458 SOCOM's 35,000 psi design pressure limit.  It is OUR loads that are exceeding the 35K psi, not the Barnes loads that are less than 35K psi.
I've been cautioning for years that too many people were pushing their .458S rifles way too hard-by evidence of people talking about seeing pressure signs-and when actual pressure tested data did come out we were all going to be in for a surprise.  Well...
SURPRISE!
Barnes' data is pressure tested, ours is pressure guested. Remember, you will NEVER see pressure signs on the .458 SOCOM until you are WAY over the 35K psi design limits, and the first sign will be flattened primers and with pistol primers, they do not start to flatten until about 44,000 psi, which is 9,000 psi OVER The .458 SOCOM's rated pressure.

Well stated....... we've all been guessing so it's nice to see some real data. That AA-1680 load with the 300 TTSX (TAC-TX) doesn't look too bad - might be worth a try.
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Marty

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Re: Barnes .458 SOCOM reloading manual info
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2011, 09:45:33 PM »

One thing to remember is that the 35000 psi limit was set based on the parent case and not having really much else to go by at that time.  Nothing says that this is the real limit, it was chosen lacking other input.

During pressure testing in Germany for law enforcement use, the folks there determined 44,000 psi was the appropriate top pressure and that is why QuickLoad originally had that as the peak chamber pressure. 

One thing that we need to do is enlist the help of some FEA folks to determine what the bolt will endure and re-evaluate the peak pressure.  Our field results show that the loads we have been using  - that have been shown in simulation results to not exceed the 35000 psi peak - have not resulted in bolt failures.  This may indicate that either the pressure barrel results in different readings or the 1 in 9 twist results in faster peak pressure...  or that 35,000 psi is not necessarily the top. 

On our prior boards, one of our members did pressure testing of his upper and found that the load data was "on the mark" in terms of peak pressure not exceeding 35,000 psi.  I would not throw the old load data out just yet, also because additional pressure testing is underway at other facilities.
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Re: Barnes .458 SOCOM reloading manual info
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2011, 09:54:48 PM »

I started plugging some of the loads they have into QL and they are all over the map... one load came back as 21,000 psi, the other as 39,000 psi.  Several folks have reported that Lil Gun seems to show pressure signs with magnum primers but works fine with standard primers.  I wonder if we are seeing that in this load data.  Also, the H110 data shows similar low pressure, but note that the load density is low, H110 does NOT like low density.

The loads for the 330 gr solid range in QL reported peak pressure from 21,000 psi to 39,000 psi - which is odd, as they would have worked up to max pressure I would have assumed.  It might be worth having them check the Lil Gun and H110 loads with different primers and higher load density.  Also, the twist on the test barrel has me concerned if it might be skewing some of the results, as Lil Gun should have given better results.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2011, 10:03:37 PM by Marty »
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Marty ter Weeme
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babirl

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Re: Barnes .458 SOCOM reloading manual info
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2011, 11:06:08 PM »

Interesting... I'll be watching and learning every day. 

I can barely afford to shoot my 458S w/ commercial ammo... Do love it and certainly don't want to tear it up w/ my reloads.

( Err, you can forget my now dumb "Enforcer" question for now; guess I'll get in the back seat again and learn some more.)

Super great community here and really awesome to learn from folks with way greater experience in these big bores/development than me.  I'm guessing Barne's is super-conservative and we also have some folks that have pushed the limit here; I have some TTSXs loaded up w/ H110 so we'll see.

Regardless, think we'll all miss Marty.
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458MADNESS

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Re: Barnes .458 SOCOM reloading manual info
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2011, 11:24:41 PM »

I can almost assure you the manual is not an under rated powder charge.  That is the powder charge that during Barnes' testing did not exceed the .458 SOCOM's 35,000 psi design pressure limit.  It is OUR loads that are exceeding the 35K psi, not the Barnes loads that are less than 35K psi.
I've been cautioning for years that too many people were pushing their .458S rifles way too hard-by evidence of people talking about seeing pressure signs-and when actual pressure tested data did come out we were all going to be in for a surprise.  Well...
SURPRISE!
Barnes' data is pressure tested, ours is pressure guested. Remember, you will NEVER see pressure signs on the .458 SOCOM until you are WAY over the 35K psi design limits, and the first sign will be flattened primers and with pistol primers, they do not start to flatten until about 44,000 psi, which is 9,000 psi OVER The .458 SOCOM's rated pressure.

I guess I didn't mean way underrated in the same sense, but thanks for the correction. It's good to note what you said there about pressure guested ( :D ).

So that can serve possibly as somewhat useful as a point of reference. doing a little math...if you know there 35,000psi stated reference point and take their 28 grain suggestion and extrapolate it to the 44,000 psi max "reality" metric, then the difference of 9K (44K-35K) divided by 35K gives us 25.7% more powder charge to load it to 44K, which brings us to a "modified max" of (28grains x 1.257) 35.2 grains.

458MADNESS

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Re: Barnes .458 SOCOM reloading manual info
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2011, 11:26:52 PM »

I started plugging some of the loads they have into QL and they are all over the map... one load came back as 21,000 psi, the other as 39,000 psi.  Several folks have reported that Lil Gun seems to show pressure signs with magnum primers but works fine with standard primers.  I wonder if we are seeing that in this load data.  Also, the H110 data shows similar low pressure, but note that the load density is low, H110 does NOT like low density.

The loads for the 330 gr solid range in QL reported peak pressure from 21,000 psi to 39,000 psi - which is odd, as they would have worked up to max pressure I would have assumed.  It might be worth having them check the Lil Gun and H110 loads with different primers and higher load density.  Also, the twist on the test barrel has me concerned if it might be skewing some of the results, as Lil Gun should have given better results.

hmmm...more to ponder. thanks for doing some "math" and thinking for us. goes to show other factors that contribute. at least this sparks the important conversations necessary.

458MADNESS

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Re: Barnes .458 SOCOM reloading manual info
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2011, 11:29:45 PM »

And this is exactly why I have been whining for almost a decade now that we need real pressure test data, and this is also the results I was afraid that we were going to see.  The odd thing I do find about it though is that their data shows a top load of H110 of 28.0 gr. yielding 1706 fps, while my data has the previously listed max load of 31.5 gr. of H110 and it yields only 1666 fps.  Not a great difference in velocity but a huge difference in powder charge.  Even my start load (-3%) was over Barnes' maximum load.  
There is a large number of shooters that follow the velocity, figuring that they can keep dumping in powder until they equal the pressure data velocity in case they have a slow barrel.  I do not subscribe to that method of self destruction. Using the Ammoguide velocity estimator tool, 28 gr. (or 29 gr. if you subscribe to the belief that H110 and W296 are the same powders and their data can be used interchangeably and the difference in load listings is due to different lots of powder) and then extrapolating the speed of my bullets at the 28 gr. load will have them strolling out of the barrel at a leisurely 1500 fps.  That's not worth a tinker's damn. :( :(

ya see i don't know how they'd be getting same or greater velocity with same powder and all(presumably) with much less grains.
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